# Critical Hit #216: Margraven Dice

In this episode of Critical Hit, A Major Spoilers Dungeons and Dragons Podcast: An apology of sorts, Orem takes a bath, and listeners are invited to participate in a game of dice.

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Ket would probably like this dice game better if instead of getting closest to 3, you get the median roll of all the people playing. (If an even number of players then the closest to average score wins.) In case of a tie, the pot is split.

That makes the game more about what the other players are thinking and less a game of simple numerics.

I like the way you think.

Averaging the numbers does come to a problem of having to quickly math on the fly, but I guess the game already does that so. . .

perhaps one of the rolls could be blind and so lead to a round of betting based on probability/bluff

Or if your opponent has the option of making you discard a die randomly?

I think Torq is really shining in this episode.

I just found it so endearing and realistic the way he both addressed the problem in the group dynamic (in his Torqy wisdom way) and called the party members his family. Head-tilt “aaaw” moment. <3

Everyone is playing their characters very beautifully and quite realistic. Everyone feels like a person. I know Trelle got a lot of flak in the last episode for her behavior from the audience and I think her addressing Torq's concerns were great and in-character. She's got way more responsibility than she's comfortable with and Adriana is playing a stressed-out, about-to-crack, overburdened Trelle really well. I wish she'd remembered that Torq could heal too though! He was clearing he voice so hard! I was surprised Rob/Ket didn't step in and clarify. I hope Torq goes over and helps the wounded anyway.

I also love how everyone skinship-bonded at the end at the baths. The visuals were hilarious! I was laughing so hard at, "Don't repeat that one, Torq. Don't repeat that one…"

Also, Is it really weird that I want to draw a picture of that bath scene really, really bad?

Margraven Dice:

Use three d10′s, roll, remove one die, and average results

A GAME is 5 ROUNDS, every odd ROUND (1st, 3rd, 5th) try to get the highest average, every even ROUND (2nd, 4th) try to get the lowest average.

At the beginning of each ROUND, each player BETS. BETS are made by each player, based on whether or not the will be the ROUND WINNER and/or the GAME WINNER. The person with the highest or lowest average (depending on the ROUND) is the ROUND WINNER and wins half of the BETS, The remaining BETS are placed into the GAME POT. If there is a DRAW in a ROUND, the BETS will RIDE, which means all the BETS in the ROUND are moved to the GAME POT. GAME WINNER is the player who was determined to be the ROUND WINNER the most number of times. If the there is a tie for most ROUND WINNERS then the most number of DRAWS between those tied is used to determine the GAME WINNER, if there is a tie for number of ROUND WINNERS and DRAWS, the pot is split among those players that are tied.

ALTERNATIVE GAME WINNER DRAW RULE: Play a SUDDEN DEATH ROUND with those tied and play winner takes all.

i like those rules

If you keep most of it the same but instead use subtract instead of average the two sets of rolls it makes more sense.

Round 1: High roll: roll 3d6, drop one then average them

Round 2: Low roll: roll 3d6, drop one, then average them

Round 3: Subtract Low roll From High roll.

Whoever has the biggest number wins.

I found how the other… 1/3… live, that was the first one I listened to, I then went back to the beginning of the Celestial Crusade, but then that was over two years ago.

I Emailed in a Margrave dice game that I think might actually be mildly interesting. I don’t think Ket and Elk would like a game that was pure luck, since they’d have no way to get an edge. My rules are probably too long to post here, but I’ll post a preview. Hopefully Stephen will find my Email before New Years and the crew can give me some feedback. Likely feedback: “We can’t make any sense of your rules”

First, all players must make an ante to play. The ante can be any amount, but further betting will be fixed on that amount. For the purposes of my description, let’s say that the ante is one gold.

There will be two rolls by each player, separated by possible betting. Each player should have a cup for rolling and four total dice. Players roll simultaneously. Each roll is with three six-sided dice and the players will remove one of the three and take the average (rounded down) the the remaining dice for their ‘score’ for that roll. After two rolls, the players will take the average of the scores of both rolls (each of which was the average of two dice), and anyone whose final average is 4 (not 3) will split all the money in the pot. If no one has a 4, all remaining players who did not drop out will split the pot regardless of what their final average was.

For each roll, player roll their three dice but keeps the results a secret by rolling with a cup down on top of the dice then privately reviewing the results. One player is designated the thrall (at the end of each round the player to the current thrall’s left becomes the new thrall, so the ‘thrall’ position rotates around the table). The thrall must decide if they want to stay in or cup out. If they cup out, then scoop their dice back into their cup and they are out for the round and can win no money. If they stay in they pick one of their dice and put it out in front of them. They keep their remaining two dice secret under the cup, and those are the two dice that will make their score for the round.

Here’s my take: You roll two dice, average them. If you don’t like the result, you drop the die you want and re-roll it. If you re-roll the result is final. One and done, Son.

Ante to start, then players roll three dice, but keep one roll hidden (with a cup or otherwise) from the other players. They must discard one of the open rolls. There’s a round of betting and discussion. Finally each player must use his open roll, but has the option of using his hidden roll or an opponent’s hidden roll. Thus, you have to keep your roll a secret, make a bet, and try to figure out their hidden roll – a little more mind-gamey.

It seems like with averaging the high and low rolls, you are very likely to get exactly to 3 on a pretty regular basis. Plus that’s too much math at the table.

I thought of a variation of High-Low: Get two sets of 3d6 (3 of one color, 3 of another). Roll all 6 dice. Based on what you’ve rolled, remove 1d6 from each color set to make a high number and a low number. Now you have a range – say 3 for the low number & 10 for the high number. Next you will take the two removed dice and roll them. Add them together and see if the sum of those two (the “Magraven” Dice) fall within or outside of the range made by the High and Low rolls made earlier. Betting can take place at the start (with an ante), on the outcomes of the High and Low Dice, and on where the Magraven Dice will land. Rolling a number between the High & Low could be known as “threading the needle” and going above or below the range would be, “splitting the tree.” And of course there could be high stakes wagers on guessing the exact total of the Magraven Dice (with all sorts of chances to switch the die for loaded ones at various points…but Ket would never do that!)

This one, I like this one. Especially with the thought put towards naming specific parts of the game.

This is my favorite too.

Great episode to tie up everything before the team moves on to getting the ore. Have to do some thinking on the dice game when I have some more time, but only from the mind or Rodrigo. Was thinking if they have any extra Iron do you think they can make that statue?

Here is my take on the Margraven Dice rules. Requirements are:

1. the game should be simple

2. the rules should be close to the original rules

3. there should be some amount of strategy

4. there should be some risk/reward thing

Given that, I came up with this:

On a turn a player rolls 2d6 and announces if that is his/her high or low roll, then rolls 2d6 again, which result in the other roll (i.e. low, if the first was high and the other way round). The high roll must be higher or equal to the low roll or the player gets a negative amount of points (maybe a constant or the difference of the dice). Otherwise the player adds up both throws and gets the difference to 14 as points.

That means:

- no averaging -> makes the math simpler

- the most likely outcome (14) is not the winning condition, but awards zero points

- 4x 1 or 4x 6 (both least probably) will award the maximum of 10 points

- if your first roll is low and you announce it to be the higher one (which is less likely) and the second roll is even lower you get more points than going the safer route of announcing a low roll to be low and rolling higher next time

To make it more complicated/fun you can add the third die and remove one (as in the original rules) or you allow a “safe throw” to replace any die with the new one, but that immediately costs 2 points

These

I listened to the episode on Saturday and have thought about it a fair bit over the last few days, which I think says a lot about the entertainment value of this show.

I’m still confused on what Trelle (as compared to Adriana, who I think is a great player) wants. She is insistent that it is the Elven way to vote on things like killing the creature, yet most of her grievances against the group seem to be based on instances where she was outvoted. If memory serves, the first time she encountered the moon creatures she disregarded the clear wishes of the party that they should be killed to the point she struck a party member. And at least three out of five party members wanted to use the materials found in the ice cave. Only calling for a vote when you have a pack of elves that will vote the way you do seems off.

And it was some time ago, but my recollection of the “respect” that Trelle and others showed Orem’s family is a bit different than hers. I remember her badmouthing his parents (as she did in this very episode), the group sneaking around, and then running away in the night (with Trelle trying to convince Camis (sp?) to go against her father’s wishes). The party seems very equal opportunity in doing what they think is best without a lot of regards for others. :)

I respect what Adriana brings to the table in terms of game play. I know others have complained about the increase in talky-talky but week after week of antics is like junk food… you can’t survive on it. I just think Trelle needs to decide if she wants decisions by consensus or majority rule.